[Music] good morning good afternoon good evening ladies and gentlemen welcome to your feed channel your TV platform and before starting I want to wish you a very nice year 2020 full of project success lots of happiness fun not forget fun and also in Goodell's and for sustainable planet it's a key issue for for the future as often as possible you have the opportunity to address different topics different subject from the practical issue to its scientific explanation and you can interfere with our experts around the table as each ship in webinar we start with the first introductory part and after you have the question sessions and it's important to address your questions regularly during the run table do not forget also to visit the fictional platform your fictional TV and I just remind you the last webinar we organized on December 18th on selenium and immunity with Professor Ben Katz pass from Munich University with Professor Charlotte Watson from ours University in Denmark and professor Peter survived from Glasgow in the UK we have also video of plenary reviews organized at different conference like the European symposium on poultry nutrition like session at the poultry science symposium in the US and so on and also some seminars we organized like the last one on beauty right from nutrient to the messenger or viability finds on the nutrition is too nightmare it is today our ninth fictional live webinar but also it's the first on fit technology and I think it's important to address that issue because we always consider a feed as an important contributor or part of the expense on the animal protein production but the feed is very important and I just want to remind you that you can post your questions at any time on this address on the screen fictional dot live at gmail.com [Music] so technology and patented technology has not often been the topic of interest for scientific conference we have a lot of conference on poultry swine ruminants but very often we forget the part on on the feed and we decided to start a new serie today with revisiting the food preparation considering first the incorporation of liquids as an opportunity to create value I would say also that very often we have a lot of believes approximations that are discussed about liquid it would be difficult to to use to incorporate it may be better to use a powder and so on but today we see on the market that more and more end-user are using the liquid and it is important to address that issues what are the pros and cons on the different technology I am pleased to welcome today three well-known experts around the table and I would like to start with found Uchitel with boss etiquette I would say first as a president of the French Association take a limo and also as part of the operation director as prime exceed priming nutrition from front and maybe maybe Franco wants to address a little bit on the take a limo part okay thank you good morning good afternoon and maybe good evening for the people and join us from ASEAN so I am taking him or what is to kill him not to kill him oh it's research and Innovation Center which focus on the on the process I control on data mining safety for the people and the under facility and improve food safety and reduce a villain on tour import as you said in your introduction to kanima is created was created 40 years ago by the all stakeholder from the animal feed producer in France and we will celebrate or 40 years birthday next year in 2021 so we have different services and I invite the intent is to to visit or take a team or a platform thank you Frank and I want also to introduce John buso that from bhangra as an internal say-so he knows a lot of the end user or worldwide I would say and as also project manager for liquid application system maybe one you want to introduce a little bit mongrel Happy New Year for everybody yes manga is a company located in menu close to Barcelona and we have an experience of over four years for liquid dosing processes particularly in the feed mills so we I hope we will have opportunity to discuss later applications for liquids in mixers and post politics to post 40 years it's interesting also to introduce Mack from material comedy CEO as a solution application manager maybe you want to give a few words first thank you apparently for organizing this first webinar on feed technology welcome and happy New Year to our attendees today I have a bit less than 40 years experience in the in the field but while I'm working for editor since six years as a solution application manager and our goal as an additive supplier is to make sure and to support our end users customers to properly apply our products and today we will focus on the liquid additives I would like also to introduce and dr. Anna Perez from the lab analysis etc subject to intense pain I recently interviewed Anna and to address questions on how to follow the incorporation of liquid and feed additives in the compete feed as you can see around the table lot of experts involved today and they will I'm sure attract a lot of practical questions so the first question we could we can ask is when we think about what liquid additives what are the liquid additives we put in the feed and what are the incorporation right and maybe Frank you can first set up the frame of that when you want to use the liquid additive first at all you have to define and you have to identify what kind of liquid what kind of product you want to under so the one of the first thing is to classify your your English so we have the this classification can be done by the the range of using this engine based on the the quantity per metric turns or the or the quantity you want to put in the in the in your process or in your recipe it's important to also it notified this different ingredient regarding the the intra specification in track Eric turistic of the liquid if you want to under additive with with oiler specification instead of acid specification it's not the same story in the process so first at all my advice and this is what we did within that Academy more research it's important to identify and to know very well what kind of project you want order and based on the quantity and based on the miscibility compatibility within each order after doing this England classification or ingredient identification you need to know what kind of what are the main diversity of liquid specification it is a base or acid project what is the viscosity or is it a project easy to be stable during the storage are we talking about the macro English not on micro measurement result so it's important to to define and to well known the diversity of the liquid specification behind that one and the next step is to define the process inclusion step do we want to use this additive within the continuous process or do we want to use this additive in the batching system because all of this process will have an impart by selecting with the right equipment the right process and because depending the if it is continuous or a batching system you will eat notify also the technology limits of the equipment you want to use based on the liver of inclusion the level of liquid loss because I will say weighing the way weighing the liquid additive you need to be sure that you will have the right quantity in the process and especially you will retrieve the quantity you use you doze in this in your process and the technology limiters I have to consider the liquid miscibility if you want to do the liquid one by one or if you want to use the the different a mixture of liquid or liquid of mix of additive liquid it's depend the miscibility and also one important factor is the the porter absorption the ingredient absorption factor we showed that if we want to add few percentage of had ative liquid additive are we showed that the Englishman can the mixture can absorb that one so this is or main advice identify classified ingredient in order to better know that what kind of process if it is continuous or batching system and then identify the proper equipment the proper machine so the proper dosing system you want to use and then after doing all of these things you will have an impact of your mixture whatever the process could be you need to consider for example by added liquid addition liquid additive think about the impact of the moisture contents be sure that by having this liquid you will not you will keep your final moisture contents based on the local regulation or me to be sure that you will have the right homogeneity of the additive in your mixture consider the the absorption capacity absorption specification of the feed one important ortho factor after adding the liquid additive is the capability to create lumps not having too much sticky project in your process which can create rubber in your plant and for sure one additional coupon potential issue is the micro be illogical effect after adding liquid in there but also it's an opportunity to reduce the dose because when you are in the additively good you can also use that one as a desta factor reduction it's a key view on the end-user but what about the supplier in fact what are your key points on defining actually the the additive supplier must be the one to define and provide the physical and chemical characteristics first to the wealth to the end-user to the feed Miller but also to the liquid the equipment supplier so we have to consider many factors such as the pH but let's not forget the PK or so in some cases the PK defines if it's a strong or weak acid or base which is important we must also sometimes consider the toxicity for the workers or even allergenicity let's remember that if we take the example of liquid enzymes as proteins may be a source of energy for the workers the density of the liquid must be considered is there a dependence to the temperature for example in terms of viscosity which will impact the the the spraying characteristics the water content also as mentioned by Frank is also important let's not forget that some liquid additives contain a big quantity of water but some do not we also have to consider that and there might be also in interactions as Frank mentioned we can take the example of water-soluble additives and oily and fat soluble additives definitely oil and fat do not mix but would so have the the issue between bases and acids we where we can have reactions between two types of additives the second point is the sensitivity that we have to consider for some additives to microbiology in this in this in this step which we must consider hygiene cleaning and so on to avoid any contamination of the feed the formulation also we as producer must consider the formulation when we say formulation as additive supplier is not feed formulation but galenic of the additive we must consider we must take into consideration the water content we must consider the potential addition of preservative especially in enzymes to avoid any microbiological contamination and also one of the most important is the rate of inclusion adding modern drug grams per turn or two kilo per turn is not the same story and we should consider that for the end user and lastly for the end user we must consider what is the required accuracy should I be accurate at one percent 10 percent this mainly depends on the biological activity of the of the additive we can compare for example an amino acid and an aroma the expectation are not the same and definitely the cost the higher is the cost the more accurate we must be I would like also to comment on the objective we have two words and for our customers the first one as I deserve I used to say and it's not only a slogan that safety comes first I will address this topic again during this webinar the safety of the people first are key secondly the respect of environment and we must respect and the customer must respect the local regulation any additive either powder or liquid must be easy to use in the film ill easy to handle easy to those easy to spray easy to clean and so on and lastly and what is the most important in term of quality is is that the feed must be must conform to the formula in this case we target at two things first homogeneity we will speak about recovery and homogeneity the oddity must be spread evenly in the batch of feed thank you mark I think I asked the question to an hour a few days ago but what means for the analyst the liquid and the powder additives let's listen to on swear on that issue comparing the two aspects of food additives okay the answer depends on some aspects but in general the analysis of our liquid fit and additive is easier for us than a bother one usually the first step of the analysis is a dilution distraction of the ad active substance of the fatality and if the product is a liquid this first step is only a dilution while if the product is important for friend we have to extract antelope and the obstruction could be a not complete the the extraction process depend of stable several aspects for example the type of the solvent the time and temperature of the struction the ratio between the same pole of the solvent the possible inter inter forensics interactions of the matrix or for example if the products code is coated then all these aspects affect the extraction process and this is the step this not the complete fits the answer is different according to the automatic or no skewing excuse me according to the feed additive that we have to analyze and the methods of analysis that we have to use and as we have more experience in the field of enzymes some of the examples will be in this world of the enzymes for example for the phytase determination in feeds there is no difference differences in the analytical procedure for the analyst irrelevant if the enzyme is in liquid or in polar form then we don't need to know the origin of this of this enzyme but for example for carbohydrate says in some method we have to to prepare a calibration line with a blank field and several delusions this plant feed is piped with different delusions of the of the enzyme and if this enzyme is in liquid form then it's easier to prepare this calibration curve and then it's it's easier for us the determination of liquid compared to powder products thank you I know the next question is when we supplies liquid feed additive what are the conditions on the delivery storage organization on that so I would like to start by your mark as a supplier I would say what is your feeling about the delivery in storage until all of the liquid additive so delivery is the is the first step let's say before the additive reached the plant first we must consider the physical constraints for packaging and storing and transport so for example if we consider drums or ABC we must consider the physical constraints to say okay this you can stack or not and how many stacks you can do was speaking about enzyme definitely the thermal sensitivity of enzymes must be consider and we must consider and control the temperature in some countries we have I can give you an example in some areas we we have to ship their enzymes in reefer containers this is an example the third point that should be considered in cooperation with the end user or even the distributor is the red equation between the quantities the frequency of delivery and the shelf life of the product you you will not order for five years if you have a shelf life of six months and definitely the financial asset must be considered also and lastly and that's really key again for us is safety everything dealing with safety is the priority and we we also we consider this aspect of safety when we choose transport supplier yes thank you mark maybe you join you can add a little bit more on the equipment's and plant even yes first as Frank said the first consideration is the way that we will receive the liquid okay of course it depends the first and easiest classification is in the liquids we will using large quantities and the liquid we will use in small quantities large quantities we will receive it for sure by track okay so then we will need a system for transferring the liquid from the from the track to a tank for sure we will have a tank because we will use it in large quantities liquids we will use in in small quantities we will receive it probably in ivc's or any kind of vessels other consideration should be also take taking account does the liquid needs to be warm up if needed I need to provide a heating system for a piping for the tank exaggerate to keep the product to keep the liquid in perfect conditions thank you and so okay we deliver the product we supply the product to the feed mill and so on how now we apply the liquid additive we first considers a mixer and we will talk about the other aspect after so first on the mixer how do we apply the liquidity okay the mixer we will need to provide liquid dosing line from the storage tank or IBC or whatever is that where we have the liquid till the mixer in the line we should to provide a pump for pumping from the from the storage to the tank excuse me to the mixer and meter alternatively we could use also but I think we could discuss this later we could use also scales but this is another another system nowadays the most typical is to use just aligned with a pump flow meter and valves for shooting down when the desired quantity is rich so under practical so maybe you can have some illustration on the yeah you you will need one dosing line for its liquid okay maybe in the manifold before to go into the mixer you can mix some of them some others may not and regarding the system you have also pumps you have also all the details on do that is crucial also for the delivery of the liquid okay I would also recommend always linear pumps so gear palms or helical palms any times that provide a constant flow okay this is the best alternative livvie alternatively some people is using also membrane of those in Pines those in pumps but if you have a linear pump you have a constant flow so when you should doubt the line it's more accurate okay and what about the flow meter defines the monitoring Z is a flow flow meter is a is a different wall it depends on the liquid we can use one kind of flow meter or other okay basically we could use we could have several types of flow meters but the basic classification would be between mechanical flow meters and electronic flow meters okay mechanical flow meters could be used for any kind of liquid they are always volumetric flow meters that that means that we measure liters per hour or liters per minute okay so we want to those in mass kilograms per minute we need to do a translation and we would need to use in the control system the density okay so this is a little bit confusing because if as long as the density could change with temperature if we use a wall a volumetric flow meter maybe we could do some mistake if we do not we don't do the correct translation to the mass okay mechanical flow meters have also a loss of charge okay so there is a pressure drop because the mechanical parts of the flow okay with the electronic flow meters you can avoid that electronic flow meters they used to have constant response constant responds and then again you need you have again the classification with with volumetric and mass flow meters okay mass flow meters are expensive but I would say that they are increasingly use in the market because they are more accurate and more easy so we have now the idea of the dosing line I would say is in cooperation but what about is spraying to say now spraying spraying for spring you will use nozzles install in the mixture mm-hmm it's important to use these nozzles in the correct place of the mixer which depends on what kind of mixer you have what is the rotational of the mixer so you need to apply the nozzles in the side where the liquid goes direct to the product and not to the to the pebbles or the shaft or whatever okay and then you need to to install as much nozzles is necessary in order to have a correct distribution of the liquid inside the mixer which depends on the geometrical dimensions of the mixers so you need to take care of the distance between noodles the the spiritual angle of each nozzle okay typical it 45 60 okay and distance to the from the nozzles positions to the product in order to avoid overlapping okay range very critical failure but that everybody is monitoring correctly today this type of field when we we talk about incorporating after the first thing is how to get an idea of what has been incorporated so what about the sampling part and I asked the analyst firt once were to that issue of sampling so Anna Perez give a feeling about the years or something face the fact that the main issue for any analysis or determination is to get a representative sample one of the method to agree to get to obtain a good sample is to collect different samples of the feed that we call this simple differential along the preparation of the fit in the feed mill for example at the end of the production line or in the different points of the track or in different bugs if the if the feed has been introducing bugs and combine all these samples to get a composite or global simple enough enough big okay and this apron should be properly mixed and divided in different portions in different parts to reduce the quantity that we need for the analysis but keep in the original variability do you give an hour if it protocol to the end-user to follow these sampling steps and so the first part of the recovery analysis if we are analyzing the feeds that are produced here in our sense that it is not necessary because we have a protocol but when we receive samples from outside from another end-users some cases if we don't we do not know the way of work of this end user we recommend some some Placidia to prepare the sample another aspect regarding sampling is that usually the level of the fatality included in the field is low and then we should to analyze a portion of the feet with enough quantity of the substance and Xiamen other to be detected and properly quantified by the method of analysis in some method you could read one gram of the feet is analyzed ok one gram of the feet is very low quantity if you have to analyze protein there's no problem but if you have to analyze enzyme another relative would have to work with a higher quantity for feet 10 20 grams per sample quite some critical issue on the analysis we'll come back later on with an ax so just to summarize what are the something process you advice to your end user of a Mac before answering your question penalty again I would insist on safety first when we deal with sampling when I visit plants and then when I have to do sampling for any trial first safety must be considered I often see people taking sample on a screw on on on on a mixer on a foot of elevator weave I mean there is always danger so first safety again must be considered before talking about representativity then to answer you a boundary I think in general we must consider cases the first and the most common one is the routine control of the finished feed quality so in general we collect sap we can collect several sample and make a global sample and we will focus on the conformity actually what is the result of the analysis versus the target versus what I am expecting so we consider the conformity the second the second case is is more seldom is the homogeneity control either in the mixer or for possibility liquid application in general we advise to take ten samples at the mixer discharge or at the outlet of the quarter or post pallet in a liquid applicator and we will have a look to two criteria first again the conformity which is the mean divided by the target and the homogeneity itself expressed by the CV the coefficient of variation which is the standard deviation divided by the mean and also do not forget to analyze the profile which can give some information again about the process thanks mark now we have delivered the product we have tried to look at the recovery and so on how but we we look at the incorporation in the mixer how do we apply the liquid additive on the post plating aspects so maybe you John you can address that issue ok to apply the in the post pelleting we will need a post pelleting applicator okay which will will will be used for applying to different type of liquids okay oils and fats okay or which it's a kind of regress so it helped us to split the total fat between the mixer and the possibility these will give us a better production less production of fines and better PDI okay and then we will use also the possibility for applying the enzymes which will increase the digestibility of the of the of the animal the correct place for installing the possibility will be always after the sifter okay we must try to remove as much fines as possible other wines otherwise the the the fines will take most of the liquid okay will keep most of the liquid we don't we don't want to do that we want to do a coating okay thank you the micro liquids will be applied into the post peloton in our case but it's not it's not important we will discuss this later it could be applied before or after the fat typically it's done after the fat and through a system of nozzles the difference with the mixture is that in nozzles the the dozing in the mixer is a bad tossing as Frank set on the beginning and here it's a continuous dosing system okay but it's typically done also through the through the through the nozzles another point to take in consideration is that for enzymes most probably we will have the enzymes in the ground floor okay so probably will need to provide a pumping system from the storage point where the IV sees with enzymes are in the ground floor to the upper floor where the post pelleting is okay and then from the possibility from the from the level of post pelleting then we can go to the post parroting applicator thank you and when we consider the points on the enzyme or any application I would say at the appellate level what about the condition of and you mentioned adding fat partly before and after and so on what would have you address a question mark on spraying after before was a fad or different temperatures and so on here comes the the question of the sensitivity of enzymes to temperature and as you know some fat needs to be heated such like palm oil because if you don't it it's solid so something like twenty years ago at issue and yet I collaborated on on a trial and this trial showed well two things firstly the moment of addition of the enzymes after after the before or after oil addition so on this on this line you see that the recovery before by adding the enzymes before fat you get a recovery of 100 but when you add enzymes immediately after the oil with this hot oil even there the recovery of enzymes is confirmed close to 100 and if you add it once the the fat is cooled on the pallets after 30 minutes the the recovery remains around 100 person so here we see that the moment of addition of enzymes versus hot fat will not impact the recovery secondly the the temperature of fat three temperature were tested from 64 to 88 degrees and again whatever the quantity 1.5 or 3 persons of oil we demonstrated that the recovery of enzymes at this time was also confirmed despite the the high temperature we could spray on the pallet so now we could address want from the end-user part what is the expectations regarding the liquid additive equipment and enzyme supplier and a definitive supplier for the end-user then there is I would say five men area as an attention point for this application one of the first one is the the process for adding your additive and the connection with the operator do not forget that in whole plant we are undoing live produce so we have in not more more hundred-percent digitalized plant but we need to drag the settings and sometimes because what's happened today would be different of what happened tomorrow the guide the plant operator should be obliged to add just the setting so it's absolutely necessary to have this process and Tegrity in with to the plant control system and the second part is also do not under invest in the electrical component pipe component sometimes I saw basic black carbon steel for the additive liquid we need to invest in the proper material stainless steel or or plastics in and we talked about the way to receive this additive by IBC Woodrum etcetera it's necessary to think about the the the temperature protection we have a different country and we put the IBC outside and you can imagine what happened when the temperature filtration is not comfort so do not underestimate to have these special storage room to conserve the right specification of the ingredient and we have more and more equipment with different throughout which because we are using mixer we talk about mixer we talk about parroting and we use the mixer and we use the parroting for example but it means with different through output and we need to adjust if we talk about post / editing application we need to consider that my equipment today can run with one specific specific capacity but for the next formula the capacity could be DeHart for 10% more so we need to be sure that we will have the right flexibility for the equipment for adding this liquid additive and by the way when we want to install an additive liquid system it's a teamwork we need to consider that it's not only the ingredient provider it's a it's a it's a combination between the English and provider the equipment provider and the hand user provider we need to put these people on the same table based in okay what is my range of using what is my expectation etc so hold of topics have to be discs you said for example calibration also because so many times we have the installation without any possibility to carry bread easily the system and it creates sometimes some trouble and do not forget to have the right instruction to check to double-check your the efficiency of your system and as a feed mirror if I have some request basic things is anticipate the access we talked about nozzle we talked about wrap we talked about storage for the Delhi BC anticipate the access hole can I clean my nozzle hole can I clean my my liquid ramp if I do not have a proper access or even if I do not have a proper access to clean my mixer as I said that some some more more often we have the the mixer with different lever load loading lever so think about this this range of using - - after proper dosing system on liquid system installation how to clean it and how to manage the liquid additive regarding the different liquid we have different we have more more Aquino business how can we manage it so maybe we can discuss later but there is couple of room for improvement to open the mind how can we simplify the way in the in the complete field to use this kind of product so this is all of this kind and having that there is also come a couple of things small things the the air filter for example be sure that you have a proper air filter if the air filter is not clean you can create rubber in your nose is another system so all of these small things need to be discussed with the equipment provider with the ingredient provider and with the end-user likely so maybe mark you want to synthesize very very short synthesis of what we when we when we advise and when we support our customers in liquid projects just in six points first for me an equipment supplier must be experienced in liquid application and even specialized in liquid application in females which is not so common all over the world there are not so many companies second point which can be sometimes a bit tricky is the interface with especially with automation the supplier must commit on the final results is not only supplying a machine it's they have to commit on the final result the quality of the feed firstly again the respect of the safety rules local safety rules they should also train the people they should train the staff of the female on usage and maintenance of the equipment and lastly then must be present and they must be able to ensure the proper follow-up and after self services Thank You Mac so now what are the key quality Catania to assess the good rig the good incorporation of the product and I think starting by the analysis I think it's adjusting to listen to what Ana thought about what are the key points on that recovery we are talking about recoveries and in some cases okay usually but this is not possible in some cases it should be advisable to to have available a sample of blank field because in some cases we have to prepare a calibration line with this planned fit and in other cases we have to subtract the value of the time of the other active substance from the blank feed to get the by difference to get the correct concentration of the product that we have analyzing when half feet is in pelleted form and we find long recoveries we have to consider some possibilities why we obtain these low values first is that for the quality the enzyme is included in the importer for mean in mixer that there were stability of the enzyme at what temperature the fit has been related and what time the pel the fit has been in decoded and the conditioner for example a another aspect is the destruction of the enzyme during the analysis of the field and this this this step could be affected by different things for example the the enzyme could be coated and we have to first broke break the disco to extract properly and also the particle size of the feed after meaning that is differences if we have prepared a sample milling at one millimeters for example or 0.5 millimeter also the presence in the final feed of some interferences that the defeat is a very complex matrix with different things minerals vitamins as other additives that we are not analyzing but they are there and some interferences could put affect the extraction for example when we analyze the phytase content we have observed that is easier the results are better if the phosphate has been in the supplied as the calcium phosphate instead of monocalcium phosphate the type of sort of the type of mineral affect the extraction of the finest not extraction the the reaction of the phytase on the substrate phytate also we have to consider the real activity present in the enzymatic product in the fatality that we have included in the feed mill in some cases the real activity is not the activity declare in a certificate of analysis in some cases is higher but in other cases is lower due to for example that the product is close to the expedition date or different things or this product has been stored for a long time in adult good conditions for example okay but usually the the recoveries the recoveries excuse me obtained are higher when the fatality is in liquid form and applied after pelleting then when the product is included in the in the solid product in the mixer as a solid problem excuse me now maybe we can summarize asking to the end-users a feed Miller what are the constraints and what are the benefits of using a liquid additives funk it's a large question and it's a challenge to make the answer shorter but you have to consider that when you are in this liquid additive inclusion process think about the the method of analysis and be sure that you are talking the same language there is couple of different analytical method so be sure that you are aligned with these different people we will do these analysis and then the advantages you can use a large amount of liquid but think about the specification of this individual liquids because based on that one you can use the front part of the process and you can you can use different process step because we know in summary that as diluted is the additive it is much more easy to have a writer CV or recovery point and if we depending the level of inclusion in your process we you can just keep the mix the batching system or if you have a larger quantity to be had you can use the continuous mixer so in summary you have the app you have the capability to to use a large ranch you can use different you can adapt your formula you can you can answer to the customer specification based on the level of additive you want to do but we have all the technology we have the right equipment for dosing with the accuracy and we have the right equipment to retrieve the quantity you want to have in your complete read or in your mixture Thank You Frank so I know I think now we have well set up the frame of the discussion even we took quite a lot of time to explain everything but it's quite important to address the different issues so we will go on the question now I'm sure that lots of question arrived on the website so let's start with the first question what about the check and maintenance to operate on the liquid application system I think maybe you're both of you of everybody can make an answer but if each one you can start on this question checking and maintenance of the liquid system okay I would say that the first the first thing is to take care of the liquid requirements itself so if the liquid needs to keep warm take care of that to keep it and to move it at the correct temperature all the time okay another point the liquid sometimes you receive them with some particles so most probably the in the dosing lines the supplier will install a filter do not forget to check that filter time to time you need to clean it okay then most probably in a in the in the liquid dosing line you will have tests for these from time to time you need to check it so Pam the product go it through the test valve and check it that the flow meter is working correctly you see time to time do you think that we need to have a regular every yes I was in moms quarter what is a time frame in that well it depends I would say it depends on the quality of flow meter yeah okay if you use a very modern Coriolis mass flow meter most probably you need to check it but most of the time everything will be correct experience let's say the the maintenance in general on liquid systems are not so heavy it's mainly checks controls as you said John calibration or modernity test and so on and I adisyl we wrote we proposed we proposed this kind of checklist for adding liquid in a mixer it was published one or two years ago and I propose that we put the link in the forum afterwards so for the attendees to have a proposal with the frequency for each operation and on the on the feed mill you you have some advice from techno anticipate when you are adding this equipment three please anticipate the layout of your equipment if the dosing system is on the middle of nowhere in the plant it will be much more difficult to to maintain it so please have the easy access of the easy calibrate valve in order to get the easy life for the plant operator and then you will see it is very easy to maintain this equipment when I was listening to you a funk I just remind me looking at an ensign you can it's a nightmare very often so we need to be more practical feed applications next question what is the main difference between lickity combustion technology in the mixer the pellets may be a joint you you already mention some things well the basic difference is that the mixer is a batch system so you need to add a certain quantity of liquid in in in a defined time okay normally we used to encourage to what all the liquid in the mixer in between one and minute 1/2 okay that's all in the in the post pelleting is a continuous dosing in a low quantities okay so typically we also in order to have a good on mo Jenna T in the post pelleting we used to mix it with some water jazz up to one liter of water per ton okay not more this is something which is not affect the the moisture at all and produces a good homogeneity and dispersion of the of the enzyme all along the the mixer okay I would like to add that join explain that the different process between the continues and batching a mixer of wasp editing that we have to consider or thought the the specification of the ingredients by putting this product in the post parroting process it is to preserve to be sure that the project will not be destroyed during the parroting process so we have two topics here post editing is that is a continuous mixer it was continuous process because we want to compare the project itself the ingrid on the additive okay and the mixer application that liquid in the mixer the batching for i will say more resistance product with the product will not be affected by the eating trade monitoring the parroting process audio extrusion okay thank you maybe next question hello not all PP le system identical what do you advise to use for better reliability better stability reliability of the system i'll be honest i was thinking now in the previous question sometimes it could happen that the customer has a bad ppl a sometimes could happen as long as the customer has a large buffer hopper before and afterwards eventually it could it could it could be also a bad but phosphorylating okay are we not telling you the name of the best PLA but I can tell you that during the last year's I will say hold the equipment manufacturer changed the mindset in order to offer a variable P be a racist anything so it's very important that now we have much more efficient equally sharp application is more and more common I would say and needs to be really good absolutely answering your question yes you about what what a good post pelleting should have I would say that you must have three different steps okay the first step is you you need to know what is you actual production value now okay because then you need to add the liquids either the major liquids or the minor liquids accordingly to the production you have so you need to have a a mass flow system for the solid for the solid okay then you need to have the liquid dosing systems for the oils fats if you have it or van or for enzymes okay and then you need to have an a kind of homogenized system either a shaft mixer or a double shaft mixer Pavel's mixer any kind of mixer to imagine eyes the mixture so that he the three main creature yes if in mind when you have these are the three main points that the good ppl a system should have okay next question what about small system because we always used PA system for large feed mirrors and what about small system or small if it means do you think it's feasible today do we have a system for small feed mill plant for small incorporation right and so yeah there is no issue there is no it's matter of define what is the machine throughput so if you approach if you have a completed plant with two ton bearers capacity instead of 40 tons 40 ton Paris capacity we have to use the machine with the right dimension this is what I said at the beginning of this discussion we need to engage we need to involve the hand user the ingredient provider and the process equipment provider in order to have the right adapted or right dimension of the equipment the process would be the same the the application will be the same the attention point are exactly the same the difference is the dimension of the equipment you want to sit in your plant the only the only thing I want what is that depending on the size of the mill but especially on the distance of the mill has could be difficult to fit there a complete ppl a4 with a weighing system oil fat those in system so this should be a study case-by-case the solution the technical solution exists whatever the plant facility size yeah okay good good point next question if we have powder micro ingredients and want to apply it with oil on feed what would be the suggested mode of application as our suspension powder directly known as water dispassion powder into small quantity of water and then water solution into an or as an emission so if we are powder micro ingredient and we want to apply with a liquid oil of water what is your advice maybe there is a couple of questions yeah yeah I think that there is maybe couple of question we have a mixture okay Alfred and then if I understood what the question is it 'interesting to add the whole or the markup or I think it of sequencing this question what I understood its matter of sequencing maybe so what we do our it's interesting question because it's much more heart of the scope of only additive liquid additive and when you are under mixing application do not forget that first you need to have a homogeneous mixture do not try to add additive liquid or whatever liquid is if the Maxtor mixture is not emulsion so first whatever the quantity of micro or make whole carrier etcetera first be sure that you have Omo Jenny's mixture and then you can add your liquid I think that behind this question is no matter of sequencing because I think that there is oil and feed and me whole polar ingredients so if the the if the question if the people can make much more we can contact us later yeah interesting I from my side I understand maybe I'm wrong I understand this question is about post paletine so I guess the question is how to apply or is it interesting or there is an interest to apply a powder additive in post balloting using a liquid as a carrier either orally or water so we are a bit beyond our topic of today but then a question would be okay what is the interest of this additional dilution process so I think the the topic is quite vast we won't have time to to answer today but first the question is what is the interest of adding a powder through liquid carrier yeah it's the discussion so on you mentioned that some people are asking you how to use the powder into the liquid just to spray after is that so common common way to today to have delivery as powder but after incorporation as liquid mmm-hmm okay yeah there is an increasing demand of adding powders in the post parroting using a liquid as a career I think there are many reasons of that sometimes because it's more easy to transport powder than to transport liquid hmm so if you'd meet again you you incorporate into liquid because it's easier for the manipulation at the last time yeah for doing the coating yeah you need to emulsion that powder as unless they maybe maybe this powder is water soluble if its water soluble it's a different story okay but if it's not soluble you can do an emulsion and they spray and do a coating over the pellet okay so I think there is an increasing demand of the with for probiotics for aromas a number a number of other products yes I would like you to come to conclude on this topic we've been speaking about omajin ET and conformity for this topic keep in mind that the reliability the sustainability of the application is really important what will happen afterwards once I under the feed through the tracks through the feeding chain in the farm will the additive the powder will stay will stay stuck on the pallets and that's the major question I think so quite a lot of questions regarding how to incorporate and to be sure that wink are my correctly to the freedom to superiors maybe your last question I know that we receive lots of questions don't be worried on if we don't unscrew the question just now we will answer on the forum so you will get the answer to your questions so this question what is your opinion about the feed mills having PP le system without sieving the pellets before liquid application after what you say wants to convince first okay I think that there is - can you keep the eggs a question yeah there is - okay there is an opportunity to keep the pre ple application without 5000 machines defending the and the project what it's happened you can use the liquid additive as a Nazi test so you can stick the dust on the main pellets and in this case you can say that I reduce the number of dust in my finish for it be sure that we are you will not creating another program regarding the the homogeneity yeah again this is discretion between the English on the additives supplier because if it is additive Sabri I'm not sure that it to do that in this way it's for me is not a best practice it's a technology sub process in order to reduce the the dust that I am not sure that you will have the right ich over level in your hand product yeah I asked the question in fact to an appearance before submitting about recovery on final pallet we will not to look at the video today but it will be on the on the 400 forum so you will have a response to say okay don't forget emoji negative of the sample when you receive a sample when you have final pellets please ground again and reco mix correctly and then make the recovery because if not you will not have the same recovery between fine and pellets so you will be able to listen to an a video later on definitely the best practice is to sit before a possibility application it will depend many on the quality of on the PDI of the pellets do have a good durability or not that's really key but I would say even if you don't have if you don't save before please and I saw that recently do not save after application I saw that once recently so please even if you don't remember to read some word that one percent of fines takes out about 15% of liquid inside yeah 10 feet 10 to 15% to see if important to save an important after when you make the recovery as an essay excellent forget after have some mailing corrector you know transferrin of the product the pellets might be a shake to during the process and so on just be sure you got your real merchandise correctly maybe early let's one more question and after we stop I think it's a good question can you talk about future innovation and liquid application equipments muskegon yeah from the end user from the end user we want to have the simple process we can have so what we developed now it's condition with the ingredient supplier in order to reduce the number of liquid rompe we have under mixer I was visiting couple of front recently and I was very surprised to see the number of dosing rompe we have on the mixer and it's a big challenge for them for the mixer a manufacturer to have the space enough to fit a 5 6 different liquid ramp and I think that is a big room for improvement to identify and to classify and if you remind the beginning of this description to classify the additive in classification additive liquid additive classification in order to have some play mixing or use the same dosing equipment or the same liquid room in order to simplify the way to dos this different ingredient in the in the mixer or in the same into the post editing application or to with another product for example it's a good point Frank I see you are challenging the feed additive supplier to also think about how to incorporate and we in combination with OSA we are not only one additive mixing and so on you have always different additives so you we need to take the technology we have whatever the process continuous or batching system we have the technology to have accurate homogeneity or accurate dosing system if we talk about those in the pure liquid storage and dosing under p.m. spraying we have the technology what it could be interesting for us reduce the process because liquid additive application is a matter of process yeah it's a complex process if I am still alone in my plan if I can discuss with the ingredients prior to reduce the number of this liquid dosing system or liquid we call it panoply liquid panel P it will be much more easy for the pump and I am pretty sure that it will increase the variability of the mixture so you tell to all of us be simple reliable and simple so I would like to I think if we stop here because we already are beyond the lofty beyond whenever I think I won't want to warmly thank everyone around the table so much behind and also unappetizing you will see more video from Anna I ask a lot of questions and some really corresponding to the question we received just just today and as I said before you can re-watch we look at the video as a live webinar on the platform feed channel dot online you can look at all the programs we have on the on this platform and so on I hope you enjoyed and as I said at the beginning you can also suggest topics you want us to address in the future so at least we will have some fundamental scientific aspects in the next coming webinars one will be on the spore germination and so on but don't forget to propose your topics and I would say also 2020 will be not only a new year but also always also special year for a channel because we will evaluate and change the platform to have something more convivial more easy to under and easy to question to find the past video and so on it will be also will start a new element as like as a short educational video it will be your three minute episode where scientists from all over the world will explain clearly what are the tip points on some mechanism on some scientific basis and so on and I would like also to say that this year and so sort of world put we Congress in in Paris in August 2020 from 16 to 20 s and it will be a week of I would say video exchange interview webinars and so on and we will start with an opening conference on water because we talk about feed we talk about 50 ecology we talk very often about nutrition but sometimes we forget water and that experiment a good animal protein production so songs to everyone and hope you will visit more and more fiction and you will enjoy and do not forget you will get all your answers to the questions on the forum on the live webinar and on the future nerd website thank you very much bye bye [Music]